Stefan – read this. Jews say no

No doubt these patriots  are “self-hating” people, IYHO,  but I’ve had enough. Shove this, sunshine

Not in our name

Seriously, you can be pious and not zious. Or better still, secular and left.


[Feb 17 update]

I just read a note from my Facebook friend Ido Liven who works as an independent journalist in the Middle East. He was confused about “IYHO” in the first line of this post. He thought that I thought that anti-war Jewish people were “self-hating”. I need to correct that.

IYHO is In Your Humble Opinion, not IMHO (In My Humble Opinion). In this case the “You” is refering to the Zionist lobby that argues Jews who oppose the occupation of Palestine and the use of phosphorous weapons against Palestinians are “self-hating” One such group is behind Zionismontheweb. There’s a good overview of the topic at Jewish Currents, which outlines why Noam Chomsky is often singled-out as a prominent “self-hater”. It really is just a way for Zionists to conveniently label anti-Zionist Jews, such as this group, Jews against Zionism.

Ido has also written on this issue “Our side or theirs“.

8 Responses to Stefan – read this. Jews say no

  1. Truth Seeker says:

    Martin – The Israeli equivalent of a neo-con is neither rational nor capable of intellectual honesty. I’ve been accused of being an anti-semite for daring to criticise Israel….never mind that many of Israel’s harshest critics are jews at home in Israel, and abroad. There are those who will tar you with that accusation and they don’t care whether it’s true or not….they just want to shut you up.

  2. Yeah Steve, I try to ignore it, there’s bulk junk in Stefan’s long replies to my posts on Gaza, best not to get involved too much.

  3. Stefan says:

    The fact is that for some – perhaps many – of the Jews who actively oppose Israel are Jews in name only. Others are not even Jewish, they just consider themselves Jewish. The laughable discussions Hirst has enjoyed with some of his acolytes on this blog on the nature of Jewish identity indicate that he wouldn’t understand this. These part-time Jews conveniently roll out their ‘Jewishness’ in political arenas to maximise the impact of their message. The ones you feature are certainly not pious. And some of them may, indeed, be antisemitic. You think that’s impossible? Look through history and, alas, you’ll see examples of Jews who have gone out of their way to slander and even persecute their kin, from Pablo Christiani to Trotsky.
    Jewish culture values constructive argument which is why you’ll find such a huge range of opinions among Jews on just about any subject. Unfortunately, some people cross the line into destructive negativity. But I know that extreme Leftists don’t have much time for pluralism – except, of course, when paying lip service to social norms (I did enjoy Hirst’s hypocritical defence of the legal system following due process in another post) in order to attract more supporters.
    Those who highlight these nominally Jewish anti-Zionists are often desperate to cloak their own politics in a veneer of respectability.
    I’ll leave it at that for now; I wouldn’t want my reply to be too long for you.

  4. Stefan, what exactly does this mean, is it just sophistry?
    “Jews in name only. Others are not even Jewish, they just consider themselves Jewish.”

    Jews in name only? Like Christians in name only – it refers to what? Perhaps a nominal religious identity, certainly not a strong enough identity to prop up a state.
    …not even Jewish…? I can’t even begin to imagine what you mean.

  5. Stefan says:

    Like I said, I knew you wouldn’t understand. Presumably you’re so used to spouting off your twaddle to easily impressed undergraduates and backwater disciples that you’ve neglected to do even a little research.
    How appropriate, by the way, that this blog posting has linked to a white supremacist site. You have so much in common.

  6. Sorry Stefan, which site is white supremacist? I can’t see it.
    You actually haven’t answered my questions, just reverted to your usual personal insults. Please note that I do not respond in kind, though it is very tempting. I have too much respect for you as a person, friend and father. I respect your right to believe what you believe and I defend my right to disagree.
    Don’t be so objectionable in future.

  7. Stefan says:

    You can’t tell which one is white supremacist? Your political sophistication is astounding.
    And you’re worried about personal insults? After accepting my hospitality you plaster my Facebook profile with obscene language and antisemitic jibes and then sanctimoniously state your support for a terrorist organisation that would consider me, my wife and my children as legitimate targets for murder. And you don’t want me to be objectionable? You pompous fool.

  8. No, I can’t tell and you’re not telling either.
    Let’s review them:
    Jewish Currents? Here’s what it’s “about us” says:
    Jewish Currents is a progressive, secular Jewish bimonthly magazine that carries on the insurgent tradition of the Jewish left through independent journalism, political commentary, and a “countercultural” approach to Jewish arts and literature.

    Founded in 1946 as Jewish Life, the magazine was reorganized and re-launched in 1958 as Jewish Currents, with Morris U. Schappes (1907-2004) as its editor, a post he held for four decades.

    Jews against Zionism? Here’s what their “about us” says:
    We seek to disassociate Jews and traditional Judaism from the Zionist Ideology by:
    Providing historical and supporting documentation that Zionism is totally contrary to the teachings of traditional Judaism through the words of our Rabbis, Sages, and Holy Scriptures which oppose the creation of a state called Israel.
    Providing historical documentation on the ideaology and creation of Zionism, the supporters of Zionism and the negative impact of their actions on the Jewish people in the past hundred years, including their involvement in the holocaust up to the present day.
    Publicizing the efforts of traditional Jews to demonstrate that all Jews do not support Zionism, which is being ignored by the mainstream media.
    Convince the news media, politicians and the public to cease referring to the state of Israel as the “Jewish State” but to call it what it is: the “Zionist State”.
    It is our firm belief that when the state of “Israel” is recognized for what it is, a Zionist state which is not guided by the teachings of the traditional Jewish faith, Jews worldwide will be able to live in peace.

    Zionism on the web? Here’s what their “about us” says:
    Our mission is to combat antisemitism, racism and misunderstanding by providing credible sources on Zionism and Israel that challenges the propoganda and online hate speech which seek to demonise Zionism, Israel and the Jewish people.

    Sorry, but I can’t see white supremacists here. If they are, they’re very well disguised and seem to be working on some weird principles I can’t see.

    What did I write on your page that was obscene or antisemitic?
    Let’s review that too:

    Martin Hirst at 11:16pm January 15
    Just remind us again Stefan, what’s the body count, I think your side is “winning”. More than 1000 Palestinians dead, 60 (at least) air strikes on Gaza versus 12 rockets.
    Pass me the Qassam, I’ll see if I can hit Golders Green from here.
    Martin Hirst at 11:17pm January 15
    That’s 60 airstrikes in 24 hours, stop hiding behind religion and admit the Israeli government is totally corrupt

    No obscenity there and nothing antisemitic as far as I can see. I made one sarcastic reference to Qassams and Golders Green. Perhaps in poor taste, but in the context of your daily “updates” from so far away from the action, it seemed appropriate at the time, particularly given the ferocity of your side’s “counter-attack” with warplanes and chemical weapons.

    As for my support for Hamas, you constantly misrepresent my position.
    I support the independence struggle of the Palestinians, I do not support terrorist attacks on you, your wife or your children.
    You are incapable of accepting any nuanced position except your own. I supplied chapter and verse on the socialist position on the Middle East, but like most driven ideologues, you refuse to acknowledge that.

    I’m still waiting for you to identify the white supremacist group I’ve linked to and to answer my questions.
    I won’t be holding my breath.

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